There’s an elephant in the room, and I want to talk about it. The vast majority of TU members are fly anglers, first and foremost. And TROUT magazine reflects that. When is the last time you saw a Panther Martin lure hanging from the mouth of a rainbow on the cover? That’s right… never.
So here’s the question: Is that a bad thing?
On the one hand, we want to ensure that everyone knows that the tent is large. Cold water conservation benefits spin casters, worm dunkers, gear chuckers and everyone who fishes for trout, no matter how they do it. And here’s a little secret: There are more gear anglers than there are fly anglers in America.
On the other hand, and on a purely personal level, the thought of cranking lures through trout runs doesn’t interest me in the least. Maybe that’s because I’ve always been a fly fisherman. I don’t have a problem with conventional gear for trout. As long as it’s legal, I say whatever floats your boat is fine by me.
But I prefer fly fishing. Does that make me a snob?
While I’m at it, I’ll throw another hot potato out there. Are dry flies better than wet flies? You can’t tell me that a streamer fly is all that much different than a lure. The essence of good streamer fishing is learning how to make those flies act almost exactly like lures. And what’s the difference between a worm and bobber, and a prince nymph and bobber? Oh… we call those “strike indicators.”
I know it all seems kind of trivial, we should live and let live when it comes to angling preferences. But you’d be surprised just how seriously the traditionalists (and there are many in TU) take the way we present fishing in our magazine.
If I ran a photo of an Alaskan steelhead with a glass bead dangling from a hook in its jaw, my email would be flooded with notes of outrage. (That doesn’t mean I won’t run it, I’m just saying…)
I guess the real question is if there are certain angling approaches that more appropriately reflect the conservation ethic or not. By attempting to broaden the base, do we risk losing the core?
Happy Independence Day, by the way… let the fireworks begin.
By Dave Stalling July 3, 2012 - 9:28 am
As I read this I am readying to leave on a backpack trip into the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness, along the Montana/Idaho border, with my son; I’m bringing along my pack-spin rod and a box of Blue Fox Vibrax and Panther Martins. We plan to catch trout for dinner. Sometimes I spin, sometimes I fly fish; sometimes I drift dry flies; sometimes I fish wet flies. It depends where I am, what the fish are feeding on, and what my goals and intentions are. Fly fishing came about because you need heavier line to deliver a light-weight form of deception, rather than a heavy-weight form of deception carrying a lighter line behind it. In most cases, I do think dry flies, nymphs and wet flies more closely imitate the diet of trout and therefore I usually catch more fish fly fishing. But those chunky, tasty fish back in the high, wild backcountry where I am headed off to today sure seem to love the minnows my Panther Martins emulate. Regardless, I have dedicated most of my life (professionally and personally) to protecting the kind of wild places I am headed for today. Fishing is fishing, and we should welcome all who embrace our conservation mission! After all: protecting wild trout, salmon, steelhead and their watersheds is the most “noble” part of being a “complete angler!”
By Chris July 3, 2012 - 11:05 am
This is a tough one for me, and I realize it might paint me in a somewhat unflattering light, but I’m feeling especially honest today, and thought I’d share my thoughts on this.
My gut tells me that fly fishing is a more “natural” way to fish for trout. But, in recent years, I’ve taken to fly fishing for all kinds of fish–I’ve managed to catch everything from redfish and speckled trout to barracuda to carp and smallmouth bass … all on the fly. And I’m proud of that.
For me, fly fishing is more challenging, and thus more rewarding.
That said, if you handed me spinning rod with an open bale, I’d hand you back a spinning rod with a rat’s nest of tangled line, complete with a contrite apology. I simply don’t know how to use one–I’ve been a fly fisher for half my life, and the other half I spent dunking worms and casting a spinning rod with a closed-face, thumb-release Zebco 33. Spinning tackle plum evades me. Moreover, I’m not too interested in finding a remedy to this malady.
So… is fly fishig more challenging? I think so, at least compared to the days when I’d cast an old BeetleSpin lure around the dock pilings in East Texas lakes for bream and bass. But after watching a friend of mine use spinning tackle on a pike trip last summer, I realized I’ve become so laser-focused on fly fishing that I wouldn’t have the first clue when it comes to cranking plugs with spinning gear anymore. Have I “graduated?” Or have I simply found something I like more?
This question has been kind of eating at me lately … I think the honest answer is this: I prefer to fly fish. I like to fly fish. I think, on the whole, it’s a sporting way to chase trout. I also think it’s a skill that one can never quite completely master, so there’s always room for improvement, whether you’re casting for trout in a backcountry creek or chasing tarpon on some Caribbean flat.
If that makes me an elitist, I guess I’ll have to live with that.
Finally… to each his own. Do what feels right. Tell you what… you stop calling me an elitist, and I’ll stop calling you a Neanderthal… deal?
By Greg Gunter July 3, 2012 - 11:13 am
There is an elitist, snob faction in fly fishing. I came to fly fishing later than most, in my late-20′s, in a desire to broaden my fishing experiences and opportunities. The condescending, holier-than-thou element in fly fishing nearly turned me away from the form and back to exclusive focus on the lightweight spinning gear and bait I’d happily fished with since childhood. The elitist faction in fly fishing does no good for the cause of conservation and the promotion of fishing. Where spinning gear and bait are legal and consistent with sound fishery management, we fly fishers have no moral standing to look down on anyone employing those methods. And let’s not forget the role that bait and spinning tackle play in bringing children into the sport. It’s the thrill of a fish on the end of the line that makes a child a fisher for life, not a philosophical – and incorrect – argument that fly fishing is somehow a more “noble” way to catch fish.
By Charlie July 3, 2012 - 11:29 am
When I head to the water, I am always toting a long rod and single action reel with a box full of self made flies from feathers and fur that I collected personally with traps, bullets, etc…
This was all due to a promise I made to myself at age eleven. Before that promise, I was taught how to drift a worm down under the frothy swirls next to an undercut with a spin rod and sinker.
Not another in my family of four brothers and naturalist father ever fished with a fly, so I’m not sure why I was so drawn to flinging line around my head and dealing with hours of tangled tippet.
Last night, I took my two young sons to the river and let them throw tube jigs and crankbaits to their hearts content. They were happy to catch brown after brown, but when I thought they were preoccupied, I slipped out my fly rod and started dead drifting and swinging caddis pupa, thinking I could enjoy my sport for a while only to discover that they were both at my heals, watching each drift and wondering at the line shooting back and forth through the air.
Perhaps they inherited the fascination of the fly from their daddy, or the motion of the activity sparks a bit more interest than the more efficient and easy spin cast, but whatever it is, fly style is my style.
By Bill July 3, 2012 - 12:07 pm
It’s not the fishing it’s the person on the other end of the rod. Like others I grew up fishing with Mepps spinners, worms, and anything else I could tie to the end of a line. Although I mainly fly fish now, I cherish those early experiences and wouldn’t trade them for the world. Where I live there is a large percentage of anglers from out of state who treat our local trout streams like personal playgrounds and actually have told others that these streams are “fly fishing only.” This is unacceptable, especially to the landowner’s children who are fishing or swimming on a hot day in these streams. Please, if you’re an Orvis pin-up leave your ego at home, don’t judge, let others fish in the manner they want, and let us all enjoy our wonderful streams.
By Jim Locke July 3, 2012 - 12:19 pm
I have fished all my life as I grew up along the Illinois River in Oklahoma. I have used cane poles, spinners, bait caters, trout lines, float lines and fly lines. I love fly fishing, but honestly, it reminds me of the good times I had with a cane pole, sorry. I suppose I would put it this way…..you can either play Mozart or Ragtime on the piano….but it is all music. Fly rod or cane pole…it is all fishing. The “art” of fly fishing intrigues me as, like golf, I never completely master it, but have my good days and not so good days. I learn something from every guide I use and every fly fisher I meet. It is truly the ultimate fishing experience for the “thinking man”…but, guys…let’s not go off the deep end…It is ALL fishing.
Tight Lines,
jim
By Jay July 3, 2012 - 12:44 pm
Ah yes, the age old debate on gear versus fly, wet versus dry, swing versus dead drift, single hand versus spey, kill versus no kill, the list goes on and on.
I am a versatile conservation minded angler who loves to fly fish in every form with a hunger and passion to understand and be proficient in each and every aspect of the sport without judgement upon others as to their preference.
There is nothing like trekking the high Sierras with a two weight for Golden Trout on the dry, crisp mornings on the Truckee swinging big streamers for Moe, dead drifting red copper Johns on the Trinity for winter steel, chucking clouser minnows for Delta stripers in the fog, or shooting a foam beetle from a ladder on the majestic Pyramid Lake.
I also love chucking enormous topwater plugs for stripers with a Loomis and a Curado. I get childlike pleasure out of dropping jigs down to hungry and stupid rockfish on the coast, and my blood boils for flylining live sardines to ravenous tuna down in Mexico with a grafighter and an Avet.
It is my belief that a closed mind restricts learning and robs you of the very essence of why you are out there in the first place. Many people are turned off by the art of fly fishing simply because of the elitist snobbery carried on the backs of purist fly fisherman like a fifty pound back pack full of “I am better than you.” This attitude is a shame, its bad for business, and creates an us versus them environment devoid of cohesion and mutual understanding.
Live and let live I say, and people will come to understand and respect your cause instead of viewing it as a line drawn in the sand. Let people enjoy their facet of the sport as they understand it. Refrain from judging those who harvest under guidelines of the law, and educate them gently on the reasons why you may choose personally to not harvest at all.
Tie your flies and fish them how you want. Pour your swimbaits and fish those the way you want. It does not matter as long as you never lose sight of why you are out there enjoying yourself in the first place.
When it becomes a job and relentless debate, you might as well hang whatever rod you use up and stay home as miserable as you choose to make others when you force your ideologies upon them.
By Scott Alderfer July 3, 2012 - 1:02 pm
There’s a time and a place for any method of fishing. My dad didn’t fish, but my interest in learning how to fish was helped along by a neighbor who taught me spin casting live bait for channel catfish and the occasional smallmouth bass in the Schuylkill RIver near Valley Forge, PA. By the time I was old enough to need a fishing license, I had graduated to tossing Panther Martins and Rooster Tails with a spinning rod. Fly fishing always seemed too esoteric without an adult role model to watch and teach it to me. Besides, the gear was a lot more expensive. But I always knew that my maternal grandfather, who died before I was born, was a fly fisherman. So I guess I was always a little curious about how in the world someone could toss a feather on a hook exactly where they wanted it 40 feet away.
Fast forward 30 or so years, and I’m now trying to teach my 9 year old daughter how to fish. She has no patience (not the kind needed for tying a tiny fly to a tippet and standing in one spot for 15 minutes or more), so, by necessity, I’m teaching her how to fish live bait (or Powerbait) with a spinning rod. It doesn’t seem like there will be any way she’ll be ready to try to fly fish anytime in the next several years. But I am very proud to say that she has always had a natural knack for casting a spinning rod. The only problem with me taking her fishing is that she needs me nearby to guide her, which makes it nearly impossible for me to fly fish if I have her with me. But the most important thing to me is that she is interested in fishing and in coldwater conservation, and it’s my hope that one day she’ll become curious enough to ask to try to cast my fly rod and follow in the steps of her dad and her great-grandpop. Whatever kind of gear that is necessary to keep a kid from getting discouraged while learning how to fish is the right kind of gear.
By OutsmartingFish July 3, 2012 - 1:55 pm
Fly fisherman are full of themselves. Fishing legally and ethically is no better done with a spinning rod and panther martin as it is with a Winston Boron IIIIIIIX and a parachute addams. If you want to think that your way of poking a fish in the face with a piece of metal is more “noble” than the next guy then enjoy your life as a bonejobber.
It’s like saying that it’s more noble to kill a deer with a gun without a scope than with a gun that does. Who are you kidding?
Just have fun, fish with respect to others, the resource, the fish and stop being a bonejobber.
I’ll get off my noble throne now.
By Gabe Parr July 3, 2012 - 2:06 pm
Introducing the notion of “nobility” into an activity such as fishing creates a division within the sport itself. If we continue assigning such language to it we do more to create separation and division within the angling community as a whole. I fish anything, any time, anywhere. When I pick up my fly rod, I equate it to just another tool in my box which achieves the same goal and nothing else.
By Shane July 3, 2012 - 2:23 pm
Is fly fishing the most “noble” way to fish trout? More noble than what, bait fishing? Lures? That is an opinion and a selfish one at that. No wonder us fly fisherman are looked at as elitist snobs. Thanks for adding fuel to the fire.
By E.N. Davis July 3, 2012 - 2:49 pm
Is fly fishing the most “noble” way to catch trout? This is a tough question for me as I almost always fly-fish these days. I do not think that there is any form of fishing that is inherently “better” than the other. To me, it’s all about personal preference and the unique challenges each form presents. Growing up I bait fished or spin-cast for almost every-type of warm & cold water fish that made VT home. My first fish was a 9″ yellow perch right after ice out and the memory of that is just awesome.
When I found my father’s (then deceased) inexpensive fly-rod one day I was intrigued, had a great book from the 1950′s that detailed how-to, and went to learn casting on the lawn and then a farm pond. Fast forward a couple of years as a teen and I was fly-fishing in MT for grayling, cutt-throat, and ‘bows out near Enis and fishing around Bozeman while out visiting some family. I guess the allure of fly-fishing just stuck with me from then on.
Interestingly enough, I’ve never seen the elitism, the condescending snarkiness, etc. of the sport. Maybe it’s the people I happen to surround myself with out on the water. To me, when it comes to fishing you be you and I’ll be me. I’m content with catching the fish with whatever method I’m using and I’ll be just as happy for you if you catch fish using crawlers, jigs, spinner, or an EHC. Why? Because you are outside, not on the couch, enjoying what you love to do. And if you happen to out-fish me? That’s cool too, because everyone has their days and some days are just better than others.
I think it’s interesting that TU has opted to stay glued to its core supporters. I think that right now, the cold water conservation movement needs to draw in a variety of supporters: that includes other outdoor recreationalists as well aside from just fly-fishers. Why? Because we all have a stake in the way that the different states manage the habitats and because we, a a sub-niche of the population, need to be able to articulate our needs to the policy-makers and natural resource managers. I don’t think that fly-fishers alone are going to be able to continue to lobby for cleaner environments and water qualities unless we broaden the support base and really show how inter-disciplinary cold-water fisheries management really is.
I just hope that as we as fishermen reach out that we introduce new people to fishing and get people back to the land that society has become estranged from. Perhaps then, we can start making more headway into improving habitats and continue what we love to do.
Tight lines!
By Debate: Is fly-fishing more noble? » July 3, 2012 - 6:53 pm
[...] ran across this blog posted today on TU’s blog site and it seems to really put a lot of things to rest. While I am [...]
By Trollmonkey July 3, 2012 - 9:00 pm
Fly fishing is just another way to bend the rod,it’s way cool,but no more so than any other legal method.I build rods,tie flies and make spinners,I’m happy when the rod is bent,especially when it’s on gear I made.Whether its an 18″ rainbow from 80′ off the downrigger or a 9″ bow on a dry it’s pretty sweet. As cold water anglers we need to stick together no matter how we fish ,so fish and game agencies know that we are ALL interested in our fisheries .
By Paul July 3, 2012 - 9:11 pm
NOBLE has nothing to do with it. The “it” I am refering to is fly-fishing. I started out trout fishing with a spinning rod and I also caught and released trout back then and belonged to Trout Unlimited. I had fun trout fishing using a spinning rod and using worms,chub tails,spinners, etc.,etc. you name it, they ALL produced. But you cannot match the sheer enjoyment that fly-fishing brings compared to any of the trout fishing method out there. It’s that simple! Catching trout or for that matter any fish by fly-fishing for them is a blast. With regard to Trout Unlimited. Trout Unlimited is a CONSERVATION organization first and foremost, not a fly-fishing club. If your interests are that shallow that you’re JUST interested in fly-fishing and not all that trout fishing entails then I feel sorry for you. For you do not see the forest through the trees!
By Debate: Is fly-fishing more noble? » | The Fishing Site July 3, 2012 - 9:26 pm
[...] ran across this blog posted today on TU’s blog site and it seems to really put a lot of things to rest. While I am a [...]
By Jay July 4, 2012 - 2:44 pm
@ Paul,
it should be noted that ever since Trout Unlimited was involved in the “On the rise” television series, the foundation has forever galvanized itself as a fly fishing only organization. There was not a single episode which depicted a conventional angler catching and releasing trout in a cold water fishery, nor were they ever invited to speak in regards to conservation on the show.
In my very humble opinion, all facets should be openly invited to be involved in order to effect maximum change. Currently the vast majority of TU members are fly fishers exclusively, and I have never heard of TU reaching out to conventional anglers here in California.
By Steve Z July 4, 2012 - 10:15 pm
I think most others have covered the landscape on whether fly fishing is more noble or not – its not – so I’ve got nothing further to add to hat discussion.
I do think that Trout Magazine and TUs other media should expand beyond fly angling. As a leader in my chapter’s youth education efforts I certainly focus on the fly angling side of things but we can’t ignore that those new anglers are more likely to take to gear fishing and we should embrace that. Of course, that would also open our doors to all their parents who are gear anglers themselves. Let’s not lose our base, but let’s make sure there’s welcome room for all under our tent.
By Kirk Deeter July 6, 2012 - 9:35 am
Thanks for the responses. Very insightful and thought provoking. KD
By Stacy July 15, 2012 - 6:34 pm
I think TU could do more to reach out to the anglers who don’t fly fish. The general season opener up here in the PNW brings out leagues of gear chuckers. One year after oening day, a friend and I went out to a local lake to jig for perch, and there were so many globs of floating dough on the surface, my friend looked around and said, “Must have been a Power Bait hatch.”
Fly fishermen might make up the vast majority of TU members, but they are a tiny fraction of those who fish for trout. Flipping through the magazine, there is very little that would interest someone who prefers to thow gear.
Why not show a nice brown or fat bow with a Rapala or tube jig hanging from its lip? Does it really serve the purpose of conservation to limit the membership by effectively shutting out the vast majority of anglers who don’t fish the way some people approve of?
By LenH July 27, 2012 - 7:51 pm
you had me gagging when I read the word noble.
By Bill Templin December 4, 2012 - 12:52 pm
1) “There’s an elephant in the room, and I want to talk about it.”
Thanks for at least “wanting” to talk about it”! Like they say, you can’t solve a problem that you won’t admit that you have.
2) “The vast majority of TU members are fly anglers, first and foremost. And TROUT magazine reflects that. When is the last time you saw a Panther Martin lure hanging from the mouth of a rainbow on the cover? That’s right… never.”
Gee… I wonder why the majority of TU members are fly anglers? Duh, you discriminate against all others, that’s why!
3) “So here’s the question: Is that a bad thing?”
It’s only a bad thing if you are seriously trying to enhance cold water fisheries! If you’re happy patronizing a rich, holier than thou, fly fishing is the only way, congregation, then no, it’s not bad. There are religions all over the world who discriminate the same way.
4) “On the one hand, we want to ensure that everyone knows that the tent is large. Cold water conservation benefits spin casters, worm dunkers, gear chuckers and everyone who fishes for trout, no matter how they do it. And here’s a little secret: There are more gear anglers than there are fly anglers in America.”
It seems like you answered your own question here, but you are talking the talk but not walking the walk. The “tent is large” but if you enter and you hold any other belief than the accepted one, you are “from the dark side”.
5) “On the other hand, and on a purely personal level, the thought of cranking lures through trout runs doesn’t interest me in the least. Maybe that’s because I’ve always been a fly fisherman. I don’t have a problem with conventional gear for trout. As long as it’s legal, I say whatever floats your boat is fine by me.”
This sounds like admitted bias, tempered only by a slight attempt to be open your mind very slightly…
6) “But I prefer fly fishing. Does that make me a snob?”
It only makes you be a snob if you act like a snob. Do you? Maybe a little introspective is due? Do you put others down if they have different perspectives? Do you feel “holier than thou”?
7) While I’m at it, I’ll throw another hot potato out there. Are dry flies better than wet flies? You can’t tell me that a streamer fly is all that much different than a lure. The essence of good streamer fishing is learning how to make those flies act almost exactly like lures. And what’s the difference between a worm and bobber, and a prince nymph and bobber? Oh… we call those “strike indicators.”
Now I think you’ve hit on it…if you did a pole would you find that dry fly purists tend to consider themselves more “noble” than other fly fishermen? Humm…
No, it isn’t surprising at all that you listen more to “traditionalists” than to any other types of anglers… it’s quite obvious, to the point of being of being insulting to the rest of the membership and those who you’ve already turned off from TU!
9) “If I ran a photo of an Alaskan steelhead with a glass bead dangling from a hook in its jaw, my email would be flooded with notes of outrage. (That doesn’t mean I won’t run it, I’m just saying…)”
Really, it doesn’t mean that? When was the last time you did, and more importantly, when will you ever do that if you haven’t already? Is that what they call a “phobia”?
10) “I guess the real question is if there are certain angling approaches that more appropriately reflect the conservation ethic or not. By attempting to broaden the base, do we risk losing the core?”
Again, the question you need to ask yourself is “Are we trying to please a rich elitist minority, or trying to solve cold water fisheries issues?” I guess you’ve confirmed in your own mind that rest of the world (the many more anglers that you mentioned) has little money and are not willing to ‘protect, connect and restore the fisheries”?
It sounds to me like TU needs to revisit their “business plan’ if they have one, and maybe even broaden that core (if you haven’t insulted them to the point of no return yet) in the interest of doing an even better job of meeting it’s mission. Have you ever even contacted any of the rest of the fishing industry who may very well want to become supporters if you drop your discriminatory practices? What’s that old saying “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem?” Thanks for at least opening the discussion!!! That’s a start…
Bill T.
By John R February 18, 2013 - 11:14 pm
I am 64 and I never tried to fish until last year. I started because my 10 year-old grandson loves fishing and I wanted to share the joy he experiences. I like small mechanical objects and spinning reels are very fascinating as little machines go. I fish with spinners because that isi what my grandson uses and he is my teacher. I also like the challenge of catching a fish with something that really isn’t part of its environment, unlike a fly that is tied to look like various insects. In my ignorance I think it is more of a challenge.
Anyway, we stopped by the local fishing store (used to be an Orvis store I think and more than half of the cars in the parking lot had Trout Unlimited stickers) to see what was there and maybe find some maps or information about local streams. The salesman asked what kind of fishing we liked and my grandson replied, “spinners.” The salesman got a sly smile on his face as if to say, “you stupid moron, that’s not fishing.” At that point I thought someone farted a really stinky one because we were abandoned. Our salesman drifted over to some others and spoke quietly to them. They looked at us with the same dopey smile. I was angry and decided to teach Nathan, my grandson, a lesson about respect for other people’s values. I reached in my pocket and pulled out $500 and counted it so the sales people could see. A few seconds later another salesman scurried over to “help” us. I told him, “no thanks, you don’t have anything that interests me. I just wanted you to know what kind of customer you just lost.” We walked out. I will never go back again and my opinion of fly folks sunk lower.
I have been a backpacker for more than fifty years, a cyclist, and cross-country skier. I care deeply about outdoor conservation. If I get more involved with fishing I will do my part to aid in cold water conservation, but it won’t be with Trout Unlimited. Sorry, but I am sure I don’t fit your mold and I wouldn’t want you to change just for me. Unless you are happy alienating the majority of fishermen out there, this is a problem you must confront.
Thank you for letting have my say. I am sure it isn’t what you wanted hear, but you are in a unique position to help change people’s attitudes… if you want to. BTW, have you run that picture of a Steelhead with a spinner yet?